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Roger Bamford: Franco, do you want to start with Oracle?

Franco Putzolu: Well, I interviewed before you.

Roger Bamford: That's right. Well, you know, I was at Esvel, and I got kind of burned out, and I went back to IBM, which you may not know. I worked in the Scientific Center for a while.

C. Mohan: This was Palo Alto, is that right?

Roger Bamford: Yes, Palo Alto. Well, there was this guy there doing an expert system - Harry Rhinstein I think his name was. He built it first in APL, and he was porting it to Pascal and they really didn't know how to do factoring, so every routine was copied many, many times and there'd be a few lines of change in each copy.

So I was looking for a job, and went to the restaurant at the end of Page Mill Road - at Foothill Expressway, and I was meeting this head-hunter, and it was a woman. So I'm looking around for a single woman standing around looking for somebody, and there was a woman standing around looking for somebody, so I started talking to her. It was an Oracle employee, and she goes, "Oh, do you know Jack Harper?" who, like many sales people, had a very brief employment at Esvel. He was at Oracle, and I started talking to her. Don [Slutz] had talked to Oracle and he said, "Check these guys out." So when I got back to my office, I thought, well maybe I'll give Oracle a call. So I called Information and got their number, and I was thinking of calling them - you know: working myself up for it - the phone rang. I picked it up, and it was Jenny Overstreet, who was the assistant to Larry Ellison, calling me up to see if I wanted to go up for an interview. This was in 1984 I guess, so I got on my motorcycle and I rode over to Oracle, which was only a little ways away, and I got rained on in the process. I had a nice interview with Bob and Larry. It struck me that Larry had a lot of charisma and energy, and definitely had the drive for success. Bob Miner was a really nice guy and very smart too. And so I went to work at Oracle. It was funny, because when I got there, I'd come from IBM and Esvel, where the customer's data's sacred. The first day, walking down the hall, Ed Oates, one of our early employees, said "Oh, so-and-so's database got hosed again." [laughter] So we sent them out the latest version of the system. The only way you could use Oracle at the time was you'd export all your data, every day, and then plan on having the database get hosed, and then you'd load it back in again. And they were really happy. I mean, customers didn't like this, but they didn't mind too much, because it was really being used not as a transaction processing system at all; it was being used as an early decision-support system. And the software was really simple. It was feature rich: there were lots of these nifty built-in functions. There were a lot of datatypes that were very useful. It was there. It was a language that IBM had endorsed, so Bob and Larry figured out it was going to be the next standard language. At the time that I joined they were embarking on this portability strategy, which actually made a lot of sense, because hardware was expensive in 1984, and by making the software portable, you could essentially commoditize hardware. Which is what Oracle did, and that created a lot of revenue potential for Oracle, because they got back the money that the customers were saving by going to open systems. It cost you some other stuff to go to open systems, as they later discovered.

Tom Price: It transferred money from the hardware vendors to Oracle.

Roger Bamford: Right; to Larry, in particular. At Oracle for a long time, there was a running joke of Stu Feigin, you know, one of the other early founders of Oracle; I guess he was the first employee. He'd always say when we'd go out to lunch and spend a bunch of money on lunch or dinner, "Well, it's only money, and it's only Larry's money." That used to be a running joke.

In terms of System R's influence on Oracle: some ideas came from Esvel, and some of those came from System R. But the original code they'd written was really like somebody had a paper that described the language, and they had a computer and nothing else. And you could kind of tell that it had been coded ... I mean, all the data structures were like, "Well, there's this query block, and then the query block has a select part, and the select part ... and it has a this and a that." There was a totally straightforward mapping from the language directly onto hardware; very little intermediate stuff. I mean, if there were some indexes, they would use them. Tom [Price] used to be working on these papers with all the different join strategies, analyzing them. They never read any of that stuff. It was what Larry called an AI optimizer, which is now called a rule-based optimizer. So it's actually quite a long time before we even had a cost-based optimizer.

Franco Putzolu: It's really true when you look at Oracle code that there is no System R origin.

Roger Bamford: No, they just ground right through it.

Mike Blasgen: It's also historically correct, because there was no access, first of all: they wouldn't have had access to the code. And it's in parallel; it's not like they succeeded in history; they didn't come second, they came at the same time.

Roger Bamford: Yes, actually Oracle had an earlier SQL product than IBM. IBM invented the language, but Oracle shipped it first.

Mike Blasgen: I don't know when the first Oracle code shipped.

Jim Gray: 1979?

Roger Bamford: Version 2. The first version of Oracle was Version 2, because they figured nobody would buy Version 1. [laughter] It's true; another brilliant move on Larry's part.

Brad Wade: Well, when was Ted Codd made an IBM Fellow?

Mike Blasgen: 1976.

Brad Wade: I remember the reception they had for him in the Building 28 Cafeteria. At that time he said, "It's the first time that I recall of someone being made an IBM Fellow for someone else's product." It was Oracle's.

Mike Blasgen: It was very early.

Roger Bamford: When I got there, they were on Version 3, which had been almost finished by a guy named Bruce Scott, who later went to Gupta; he wrote a lot of the expression-evaluation code in the first and second version; I guess in Version 3. Version 2 had been written in assembly language for PDP-11; Version 3 was written in C. He did that, and he wrote this really nice beautiful, compact code - very well structured; a lot of it's still around now. The next version I think worked really well, and accounted for a lot of the growth. Then we kind of went on from there. There was a decision support and distributed query - Version 5 - went out after that. And 6 was a rewrite for transaction processing.

Franco Putzolu: How much was rewritten in Version 6?

Roger Bamford: Well, kind of the equivalent of the RSS, so that would be about half. And it was all thrown out, and written again from scratch.

Jim Gray: The same data structures on disk though, right?

Roger Bamford: No, volume formats changed. Everything's completely different. Like rows in Versions 3 and 4 and 5 were concatenated in blocks - you know: byte, byte, byte, byte, byte, byte, byte ... with no index or anything. So if you wanted row sequence number twelve, you'd start at the beginning of the block, and you'd start scanning over columns, and rows ...; and eventually there'd you'd be, right where you were looking for. [laughter] So how do you update a row and make one of the columns bigger? Well, you shift the rest of the block to the right ...

???: Oh, my god.

Roger Bamford: Right, so we changed that in Version 6. I was kind of the lead designer in 6. When you were saying about the SARGS ... at the time, there was no abstraction between what was the RDS and the RSS. There was an interface, but it was violated all the time. One of the things that you would do is you'd be deep in the middle of some block, looking around, and you'd call back through these upper layers, and it would do some SQL thing, like a sub-query evaluation. And since Oracle had consistent reads, it was OK to do that, because you could be holding this block and it wasn't preventing somebody from changing it, because they'd get their own copy and just change that. That stuff we preserved, because it turned out to be OK. But the logging, and the recovery and the way consistent read itself worked and all the locking - basically everything to do with data management was replaced in 6. And then, since then on, we've just been building on that pretty much.

That's kind of the Oracle story. Does anybody have any questions?

Don Slutz: Larry started out kind of copying System R as-is. How long did he kind of think of going that way versus shooting ahead?

Roger Bamford: What do you mean?

Don Slutz: You know, adding more function beyond. He started out directly with System R.

Roger Bamford: Well they took the published SQL specification and they built that, and they added stuff that customers wanted.

C. Mohan: Even Version 1 you had more user-defined functions, and so on?

Roger Bamford: No, Version 2 was all assembly language; I don't know what was in there. But 3, yes, they built a bunch of stuff into that, more functions for this ...

Franco Putzolu: When did they add the forms, you know forms tools for writing applications more easily?

Roger Bamford: Oh, yes: IAP, I think: Interactive something-or-other. There was a precursor of SQL*Forms, I think went out in 3 or 4; I think it went out in 3. Yes, they hired this guy - this is typical Oracle, actually - they hired this guy straight out of school; a smart guy; he'd done a little programming. And the first thing he did was the UFI thing, and then he built IAP, which is this forms-based application.

Bruce Lindsay: Like SREDIT?

Roger Bamford: There were blocks, and then there were tables; it was like a table editor with a lot of escapes for transitions from one table to another. Nobody at Oracle was held back by lack of experience. [laughter]

Mike Blasgen: I remember seeing the Oracle system running for the first time at some computer conference like SIGMOD or something. There was a demonstration area, and in a little booth was Larry Ellison and one other person, showing off their system. I introduced myself (Jim Mehl was with me) and Larry knew about System R and about our work and he gave me a little demo. I was impressed, because it was obviously simple, in the sense that ... well, you'll see why in a minute. It seemed fast. He loaded the database, queried it, and updated it, all in a few seconds. It was - I don't know how many - maybe five-hundred records. And it loaded instantly.

Roger Bamford: What year was this?

Mike Blasgen: I don't remember; probably 1979 or 1980. The thing that impressed me the most was that it ran on a little PDP-11. The machine looked to be the size of a carton of cigarettes. It must have been an LSI-11 version of the machine, if my recollection of the size is correct. And System R at the time in most of our joint studies and at IBM was running on 168s. Now a 168 is only maybe the power of a 486DX2 or something, but the fact of the matter is it was a huge machine which would probably not fit in this room.

Jim Gray: It was water-cooled.

Mike Blasgen: It was a huge computer. And Don [Chamberlin] was talking about, "Well System R wasn't so big; it was only 1.5 megabytes of code and 87 thousand lines of code." But it did in fact run on a computer that filled this room. And the little Oracle thing ran on a machine that was the size of a carton of cigarettes. I remember because it was right there, stuck sideways onto the shelf. It was up on a little shelf above the desk, attached to a glass teletype. And that was all that it needed, and it ran fast, and I thought, "Simple, fast, cheap; that's neat. People will buy it." Exactly for the application that Roger mentioned: the query application, for decision support.

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